What's that godfather line....the 'pulling me back in' one?

I know I said that was my last post about all this. But the Today Show did it again and as we all know I have a pathological need to have the last word. Some day I'll give you the psychoanalytic reason for this but today we need to discuss this one last time. I hope this is the last time.

Best line from this morning's Today Show revisit of the stupid Drink at Playgroup topic [link when available][It's up now.]:

Email question: "My husband and I split a beer at dinner in front of our children....."

Stefanie Wilder-Taylor: "....that's not responsible drinking, both those people need their own beer."

Perfect. Hilarious. Loved It.

My friend elaborated: "Yes, if you can only have half a beer, please work on your tolerance for crying out loud."

She's irish just like me.

Also I loved how Stefani knew not to fall asleep during her appearance. So media savvy that one. I thought you were supposed to close your eyes on tv. I'm from the midwest.

The other thing I thoroughly enjoyed was the part where, during the lead in, Matt Lauer asked Meredith Viera what her opinion about cocktail playdates is. Remember when I said Meredith choked on a turd when I joked about selling my son on Ebay? I think she choked on another when asked for her opinion and actually said, "Well, you're putting me on the spot."

I think I had an orgasm at that point.

I am trying to remain positive about today's revisit of the topic. It was much more a sane and reasonable discussion than the one I had a couple weeks ago. Actual questions were asked of Dr. Janet Taylor, so, you know, that was a welcome and refreshing change.

When asked to defend her opinion that mothers should never drink, even one drink, when they are primary caregivers (which is actually all the time), she realized there were a few holes in her position so maybe she should actually stop being a robot and speak like a human being.

That maybe instead of assuming women are so stupid they don't know how to control themselves, maybe we should do things like "Be aware....." drinking to relieve stress or to self medicate can be a problem.

Yes! Absolutely! Hey! I wanted to have this discussion a couple weeks ago!

According to the producer Dr Janet Taylor did not change her opinion. Which is a lot like saying my appearance would not be a 'debate'. It's like a whole other reality for The Today Show. In The Today Show world I am 110 pounds and 6 feet tall, even though I am not either of those things in The Regular World. I love it there. I wish I could live there. 

I would only like to add this:

When Dr.Janet Taylor was asked why this is such a hot button issue. I disagree that it's entirely a situation where women are very afraid of being called a bad parent.

I think it's a hot button issue because a lot of women are tired of being told the lie. The lie that they are not capable

As Alice said: "We need to be watched. We need to be told what to do. We must be monitored, judged, and corrected."

Main stream media is invested in this message for a variety of reasons someone else could probably dissect more intelligently than I can.

Dr. Janet Taylor's message was meant to be so extreme the first time so that it fanned the flames of the ongoing war between mommies. I suspect, due to her ongoing relationship with The Today Show, she was actually told to be polarizing, and I also suspect today she was told to be a little more reasonable. Today, instead of assuming women can not have a drink and also "be aware" of the signs of problem drinking, she realized it seems, that women are not babies. We can actually "be aware" and not be told that we 'underestimate the effects' of just one drink.

I think there are people who will always think drinking is wrong. There will always be people who can't differentiate between having a few drinks and being drunk and out of control. I think there will always people who associate social drinking with violent alcoholism they may have grown up with. I think there will always be people who believe the best way to teach minors to abstain is to abstain yourself. Those people are wonderful mothers and imperfect people.

I don't think drinking is wrong. I think there is a huge difference between a few drinks and being drunk and out of control. I see a huge difference between social drinking and violent alcoholism. I think modeling responsible drinking is a way to teach your children to be responsible social drinkers when they are of legal age. I am a good mother and an imperfect person as well.

I am tired of The Lie and I know a lot of other people who are as well.

PS: Hey! Meredith would like your jokes. I asked for your jokes a few weeks ago. First they use something remarkably similar to my trademarked logo, now this. Maybe Meredith really wants to be my friend. We'll be like sisters!

Comments

[ozma]

I am tired of The Lie and as much as I think I am all Ms. Sociocultural Analysis somehow you and Alice taught me something useful about it. I'm so glad you think you are a good mother and you are! It's so hard to know what a good mother is like--The Lie obscures that knowledge since the standard of good mother becomes so vague and unattainable that as soon as you do one Good Mother thing, you become aware of another Good Mother thing you have failed to do. I think I need to remember this: "I am a good mother and an imperfect person as well."

But the irony is that this whole discussion--and a number of other things--has gotten me to be more aware of my drinking. But maybe more importantly of The Lie and of the need to enjoy myself as an adult. And maybe how it might be nice to have some friends over for goat cheese salad.

[MelissaS]

Here is a great one.

Seriously weep worthy.

[hazasaem]

I wonder why Meredith didn't address her "babysitting" comment....surely many of the emails took issue with that alone, drinking aside.

[slouching mom]

Melissa, I love you.

In The Today Show world I am 110 pounds and 6 feet tall, even though I am not either of those things in The Regular World. I love it there. I wish I could live there.

This made me laugh so hard it roused the curiosity of little-ones-who-should-be-at-school-but-aren't-because-this-morning-it-was-10-degrees-out. (What's so wrong with 10 degrees? A nice round double-digit number, it is.)

And I laughed even harder when I got to this:

Maybe Meredith really wants to be my friend. We'll be like sisters!

You just keep topping yourself.

[Meramoo]

Melissa, I think you rock.

My question is, if parents don't drink in front of their kids, how will the kids learn about responsible drinking? I surely never did.

[Bettie Bookish]

Maybe you'll be like more than sisters. Maybe you'll be drinking buddies.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only person who has been craving goat cheese salad since the first segment aired.

What is it about goat cheese salad? Why do I crave it so? Am I trying to relieve the stress of motherhood? And can I parent effectively while under the spell of a log of Presidente?

WWDTD? What Would Dr. Janet Taylor Do?

[Bettie Bookish]

Of course, I meant WWDJT do. Must not leave out the J. What kind of mother am I?

[Dooce Fan]

Great gooshie-mooshie. I agree some people will never like drinking. I don't drink because my dad is an abusive alcohol drinker and my boyfriend is recovering from alcoholism so I avoid it to show support for him. But people who can do it safely should be able to do it. Even in front of their kids. Like someone before said how else are the kids going to learn to handle a drink if they can't see their parents handling one okay. I want a baby but I don't want to have to answer to every joe schmoe for every little decision. F* the Today Show. Bunch of elitist pricks. Except Matt, he was funny when he got into the slap fight with Tom Cruise.

[Dooce Fan]

P.S. and one more thing Meredith Viera, I hope you read this, using your celebrity to attack people is irresponsible journalism. Aren’t you supposed to be a reporter? Then shut up and report. If not, you are an opinionater and don’t deserve to be on something calling itself the news. No one wants to hear your opinions, go back to the View and suck up to Barbara.

[dana]

I didn't see this segment, but I just cannot believe the sharing-a-beer quote. I love it.

As far as the "Momtini," you really need to slap a TM somewhere visible by the design and when using "Momtini" (or always either italicize Momtini, put it in quotes or all caps to denote claim of rights). You can use that designation even if you haven't begun the actual trademark registration process as it will alert others that you claim rights to it. Otherwise, other people will start using the design and it will become common and you will lose any claim to it. That would suck.

[Flydaddy]

Ha! I do feel for the moms, but also try being a dad. Bust your ass parenting, only to be told that you are 'babysitting'!

[MelissaS]

babysitting....I hope you're not drinking while on the clock!

[MelissaS]

Dana, I'm on it. Thanks.

[Peggasus]

When the segment first began and Meredith mentioned that they had gotten a lot of emails about it, I wish they would have given some statistics like, 'and 80% are running in favor if it being OK, and this is why we are re-addressing the issue.'

Though DJT was a bit more human in this spot, I still don't like her. It seems as if she was (although a bit begrudgingly) admitting that there was something to the Other Side of the issue. Of course, that's probably just because some poll told her and the Today show to lighten up rather than alienate a core viewer group.

[magpie]

Melissa, you slay me. This whole tempest in a teakettle has been a great spectator sport. Sorry that the Today show put you on the spot, but I think you've more than risen to the occasion. And Stephanie too.

Me, I drink wine with dinner every night. And I point out The Lie every chance I get.

[OMSH]

Well, I for one know what happens when dads are left in charge.

I too found their version of your version of the momtini logo ... hmmmm ... perhaps it was displayed as an aversion? I'm befuddled.

Awaiting link to be added later. EAGERLY awaiting.

[BOSSY]

It occurs to Bossy that if we didn't drink on occasion, no babies would get made in the first place.

[sarah]

I was telling my mom about the segment and the cocktail playdats and how I really wanted to have one soon. Because two days of no school due to cold...we need socialization.

My mom frowned at the first mention and I expressed surprise. I said, what's the big deal, moms relaxing and such. And she said, "oh, I thought you were meant for the kids."

LOL. I never watch the Today Show anyway, but this has ruined Meredith Viera for me.

[angela marie]

I think that I am finally all talked out on this one, as my blogging friends and real-life friends/family have heard me since you appeared and I was appalled. Anyway.

Learning to drink responsibly is one of the things that I do hope my four children (just like Dr. Janet Taylor!) learn from me and their father. Another is how to handle money. I remember bills/money being "hush, hush, we don't talk about that" in our family. In many families, I imagine. So imagine my surprise when I didn't really know how to balance a check book, or I played 'Savings Account Roulette' with my ATM card in college. We are trying to tell our kids about real life so they might not feel as lost.

OK. NOW I'm really talked out. whew.

[angela marie]

Wait. That comment of mine sounded like I was appalled by your appearance on the Today Show. I sure hope you know what I mean. I can't help it, I'm drunk.

[Erika]

I thought the e-mail about what if this and what if that happens was hilarious, because really, if you live your life like that ALL THE TIME, you really need a drink. Really, something COULD happen at any time, but that doesn't mean one can't live their life. This is so dumb that it has become such a big topic. Are they really out of reporting ideas? (and I hope you know I don't mean your part is dumb in the whole thing.)

[Nicole]

I'd be curious to know what previous generations of mothers think about this insanity. I'm 29 and not yet a mother (so maybe I shouldn't comment at all) and when I was a kid my mom and all my friends' moms drank at every event we ever went to. Birthday parties, Halloween, Christmas, etc. We didn't have "play dates" back then but I bet they would have drank at those as well. None of us kids were worse off because of it, and kids in 2007 won't be either. Exactly when did this become such a hot button issue? I find it ridiculous that it's a big enough to deal to so many people that it's suddenly national debate.
I love your site and your writing, but I hope this mom-as-irresponsible-boozer issue goes away soon.

[Head Squawker Michele]

I was raised in a family that considered alcohol the root of all evil. So as soon as I was old enough to go out with my friends, I drank myself silly any chance I got because I wanted to know what the big mystery was. I think if kids see their parents drinking responsibly, they grow up thinking it's no big deal and they too will drink responsibly.

[Y]

The Beer Comment was incredibly awesome for two reasons.

The Dr. actually laughed.

Meredith didn't know what to say because "OH NOES! DRINKING IN FRONT OF YOUR KIDS ISN'T FUNNY!" (Everyone else: HAHAHA. Meredith:Even the KIDS?)

God, that was great.

[Susan]

Main stream media is invested in this message for a variety of reasons someone else could probably dissect more intelligently than I can.

Read The Mommy Myth: The Idealization of Motherhood and How It Has Undermined All Women, by Susan Douglas and Meredith Michaels. You won't regret it.

[toyfoto]

This just proves NBC's after ratings. They got an enormous response the first time so they decided to rerun it with a little less finger pointing. I'm still not impressed.

[MelissaS]

You guys are welcome to post links to your thoughts in the comments.

http://ittybit.blogspot.com/2007/02/lets-just-forget-today-and-move-on-to.html

I agree with you toyfoto. It's still bull shit. I've been accused of drama mongering in the aftermath of my appearance so I'm loath to continue bitching.

Though they backed off a bit, it's still a feminist/mothering issue and I do still feel strongly about how wrong it is.

[hello insomnia]

I want to submit a joke but I don't think Meredith's going to accept it so I'll post it here:

God abhors a vacuum and He's not too happy about Meredith Viera's face either.

Maybe I'm the only one laughing at that one.

[b]

Since we are back on the subject of babies and booze, I have recently discovered that the brush to clean baby bottles makes an excellent wine glass cleaner as well!

[maiareads]

Great follow up to your interview.. And Stephanie was granted a second chance for all of us "BAD" mothers.

Agree, the Doc was much less militant this time and MV's tone less harsh. You did good in that your piece generated so much attention Melissa. One step for womankind!

[Rosalyn]

Doesn't anyone remember Meredith talking about her beloved wine on The View? I guess she gave that all up once she climbed up on her throne on The Today Show.

[Jessi Louise]

I was waiting for your piece to air and then missed it because we were moving. I just watched it online and it made me want to throw something at the screen. I can only imagine how frusterated you were. They were out to get you and it didn't even matter what the heck you said in your own defense. You were right to say they talked about women like we're children. Infuriating! I personally think this "issue" is a non-issue. Just more personal preferences that moms can judge each other about. I saw the other pieces they did on the topic and was very bothered by all of them and their slanted view on reality. Some people seem to think that life should resemble a hallmark movie in its bland and sanitized state, instead of a place where we all make our own choices in order stay sane and be happy. I'm rambling, but I do have a point - I think most people know simply by common sense what would be crossing the line in terms of drinking in front of the kids. And if they don't know, they probably aren't the type to be tuning in to the Today show to pick up advice on parenting. It's ridiculous to make such an issue about it.

[MelissaS]

Rosalyn: No she didn't give up her wine, jesus, as the interview closed she said she could "use a drink right now".

No no no, Meredith Viera can be trusted not to get sloppy drunk. It's just the Mommies of America who can't be trusted and need stupid condescending morning show hosts to tell them they might kill their children if they consume a glass of wine without a 'designated parent' around.

I KNOW I AM TRYING TO LET IT GO. This is as good as it gets I guess.

[Mom, Ma'am, Me]

What I want to know is, who was that doctor and what did they do with the Dr. Janet Taylor that you appeared with?

(my favorite line: when DJT said "I'm not the alcohol police.")

(I also liked when Stefanie said: "We're not talking about a flask at Gymboree." Me: "Why the hell not?")

Kidding on that last part!

[MelissaS]

I know, I miss my Dr Janet Taylor. I think we could have been drinking buddies. As long as it wasn't at a playdate.

I think Dr Janet Taylor read a lot of blogs about herself and realized she didn't come across as she wanted to. I also think maybe the Today Show asked her to be a little more human.

[Lindsay]

Nicole asked what previous generations of mothers think about all this. My kids are all in their 20s now so I think I qualify. Part of what has struck me repeatedly in this discussion has been terminology. When moms and their kids get together it's a "playdate". When dads and their kids are together, it's dads and their kids doing something together. The same for the backyard barbecue--then it's families getting together.

When my kids were little, the term playdate was just coming into vogue. The implication was not only that time for kids to play together had to be scheduled, but that *only* the kids were the players--the adults were irrelevant. They could be moms (very rarely, if ever, dads), babysitters, nannies, or any caregiver. When the adults are interchangeable, it's a very short step to treating them all as babysitters.

I had to schedule and plan time for my kids as well, due to geographic distance. But the terminology was different--it was, hey, want to come over for lunch and let the kids play together? Or, my kids are driving me nuts, come on over and give me another adult to talk to before I murder them! (It was before eBay...) At that point, the focus was on the adults, rather than just the kids, and I don't remember the issue of drinking a glass of wine or a beer or whatever ever *being* an issue.

[Melissa note: That was something that struck me as well Lindsay. A friend who's kids are now all 18+ told me the same thing. A lot of this is a semantics issue. She and a friend used to walk down to each other's house, have wine, let the kids play and they never called it 'playgroup'. Something about that word seems to get some people riled up. I think people picture a 'Gymboree' style structured playdate. When, in my experience anyway, we're just getting our kids together because they're bored, we're bored and in our neighborhoods there either aren't kids or they're in daycare/day camp...whatever.]

[jkopftwins]

"I think modeling responsible drinking is a way to teach your children to be responsible social drinkers when they are of legal age."

Aaaaamennnnn... it's not the only way, of course, and it's no guarantee, but if you're not going to show them, believe me, someone else will be happy to demonstrate.

We actually talked about this whole issue in my extended family on Super Bowl Sunday -- as every adult at the table except one sipped their wine/beer. As the children at the table sipped their Ovaltine and ate food. Prepared by drinking adults.

[Lindsay]

Melissa,

Exactly--playdate, playgroup apparently sounds to some people like an organized activity along the lines of soccer, little league, Brownies, Cub Scouts, whatever. I suspect that in any of these discussions, it's important to be *very* specific about defining the terms. Otherwise, it's like the difference between organized youth soccer, for example, and a pickup game in the back yard.

[ErikaMSN]

I think Lindsay and Melissa are on to something w/ the semantics. One of my first thoughts about this whole thing (after WHAT ABOUT DADS?!?! finished going through my head) isn't that people are necessarily upset b/c mothers are drinking in front of their children (although they may say that's what they worry about), but it's because the "playdate" implies that the drinking is scheduled--is the purpose of the gathering. People are okay w/ a drink at dinner, but when we say "cocktail playdate" it brings up images of children running around at a cocktail party or a wine tasting.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who *think* that they're upset b/c of moms self-medicating, or whatever--but really, no one got upset 30 or 50 years ago when the suburban moms had a cocktail together while their kids were running btwn backyards. It's when we put a label on it that people infer the alcohol--or the mothers' own needs for adult conversation and socialization (gasp)--is the primary reason for the get-together, not the kids' needs. And then all the internal warning lights go off, and people lose their ability to reason.

[Lauren]

This is my fave part:
"IS there a gender bias here?"
"No, absolutely not."
WHA-WHA-WHAAAAAT???? Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that this supposed psychological professional clearly does not live in reality???

I also love the email about all the doomsday disasterous things that could happen to kids on playdates. Is the assumption that if mothers don't drink, they will be able to protect kids from all those things? Most of the kids I know have endured a few good solid falls or knocks to the head regardless of the vigilance of their parents.

Besides, I can have WAY more than one glass of wine and still dial 9-1-1 with amazing accuracy! :)

[Lindsay]

Gender bias, oh yes, absolutely. Remember that to be a "good mom" you are required to prevent 99% of anything bad that could happen to your child, and respond to the 1% that *does* happen in superhero fashion. And then you get a "oh, yeah, she's a really good mom".

To be a "good dad" otoh, you need to remember how many kids you have and what their names are. If you do something like, oh, read books to the kids, you're an "amazingly good dad".

IN NO WAY am I putting down any of the wonderful, dedicated fathers who take parenting seriously, believe me. Just pointing out that the expectations are different--somewhat analagous to the difference between a GED and a Ph.D when discussing education.....

[Dooce Fan]

Lol, my comment was accepted at Merideth's site, http://meredithtoday.ivillage.com/entertainment/2007/02/lost_in_space.html

[MelissaS]

My friend pointed out the bias may not be, from her perspective, so much about drinking but there is a bias in assuming mother are generally the full time caregivers of their children.

I still disagree with this because not a single 'expert' had mentioned that issue. It was definitely a 'pit the *mommies* against each other' slant.

I think SAH dads have their fair share of bias and stereotypes. Imagine being a sah dad and trying to find other parents to hang with during the day. It was hard enough and I have a vagina.

But I also know a lot of men, including Logan, who get a hearty "Wow! You are amazing!' For doing something like taking my daughter to the mall with him to go christmas shopping when she was a baby.

I was reprimanded only days earlier at the mall christmas shopping for taking my baby out in public and "exposing her to germs."

So frustrating.

[silvermine]

Wow.. what a better segment. The too big issues our doctor friend had:

1) Assuming the dad who was drinking at Halloween WASN'T THE PRIMARY CAREGIVER. Gah! I mean, I don't think anyone said mom was around!

2) Everyone constantly said "one drink one drink one drink" and she finally admitted one drink is okay. Okay, so your problem is, then....???

[silvermine]

Oh, and I loved the email about all the things that could happen to kids. The first thing that came to find was that she was implying that the moms got so drunk they started handing choking hazards out to babies or something.... It definitely implied that bad things would happen due to the drinking! Maybe they think the kids are all drinking and she was worried they'd fall off the slide....

Oh well. In Texas it's legal to give your kids alcohol, no matter their age. Perhaps I need to move back there. I'm sure some people would freak out about that too.

[MelissaS]

Yes! I loved when Stefanie said that. "I was drinking at halloween too. Should we have a designated parent?"

I think, ideally, if you're planning on a night of drinking that's wise. If you're having nothing more than a dinner with beers? And you're an experienced drinker? Really not necessary.

The one drink thing? Is because media is afraid if they say one is okay then Mommies think 50 are okay and THEN WHAT?

[themikestand]

Hey. Thanks for coming back to this (or never leaving it, whatever)... I think the debate is far from over -- even though I didn't know it was much of a debate in the first place. At any rate, the second interview I found much lighter from Meredith whatshername's standpoint, which was good. Still seems a bit tight, like the good Dr.

You still win, in my opinion. Glad we have people like you out there showing what normal parenting is like. Really.

Drinking my wife's half-beer,
- Mike

[Scoutj]

I'm totally fucking cracking up. I just clicked on your link to Meredith's blog and I shit you not, the advertisement on the right for ivillage was for Bailey's with little martini glasses floating in and out. Too funny.